Author Topic: how to program to jam with friends  (Read 17019 times)

vindrums

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how to program to jam with friends
« on: June 10, 2009, 11:46:34 PM »
    I few have mentioned they are starting with little melodic knowledge, and wish they could get up to speed quick and maybe even jam with others......here's a way to jump into program kits overnite! Music stores have these heavy cardboard things with the cardboard wheel inside that show scales and a bunch of other important stuff. I used one that showed 'power chords' for guitar, and that helped my guitars to have realism. (I didn't play chords that a gitar wouldn't play or even worse, notes not on a gitar) There are at least 30 of these things.
   But the one everyone should get if you are starting at zero.....the one that shows chord progressions for rock and blues. Every one has heard of the old adage, learn three chords and hit the road....it's almost that simple. when they talk about that they're referring to (playing in C ) C for a bar F for a bar G for a bar and back to c for a bar....there's your first rock song. Now program it into chords on the KAT...it's simple..they give all the notes in the chord......now the thing is: this cardboard thing has what a practical person would call every chord progression for a rock or blues tune, and how to do them off any note. There's not that many, don't be afraid. Being programmers, we can just read off the card, and set up kits in what? 30 minutes, maybe an hour. When you hear these progressions you will recognize every one! Some people I know set these kits up, and then put a group transpose on a pad to step through at half steps. That way, no matter  what key yer buddies say, you just transpose to that key during the few seconds after they announce the key. You can now jam. Yes you only have a handful of chords right now, but after you 'jam' a couple times, you'll see some tricks to make your drummer-self reflect on the tune, but this is a simple way to start. Seperate kits for minor chords, etc. etc. etc. ALT 8 or RAN 8 for solo lines, yes you will also play your first solo while 'jamming' If you're jamming at a level where someone yells out: take it to the bridge, that'll be another lesson!
   These cardboard things were around 7$ when I bought mine. When I wrote my first 6 tunes, this thing was in my hands the whole time.
Vince

REF

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Re: how to program to jam with friends
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2009, 07:04:20 AM »
What are they called? I'd like to see if they are online. This would be a big help to me, because when I stand at the malletKAT, I really have no idea what to DO to actually get things going. I have transcribed to my own number system, but its time consuming.

I really just want to learn this ridiculously illogical standard notation system, frustrating and aggravating as it is to me (and millions of others down through the ages), and get it over with. 

vindrums

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Re: how to program to jam with friends
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2009, 12:25:15 PM »
    BTW REF I'm doing a 100 year old farmhouse! All mechanicals, new supporting walls, gutters downspouts, moving floor plans, took down chimneys.....In the past week I've moved 10 tons of gravel up my hill. This is the proper way to develope that nice light touch for music. (Laughing) Good luck with your remodel!
     The one I used that I referred to was called: Ron Greene's Rock & Blues Guitar Power Chord Dial    With this, you can be jamming with your wife and friends in no time. Get the thing and ask more questions, because we really can skip some of this book learning and get you playing quicker. (it's no fun to be at the begginning of something so overwhelming, so we need to let you taste the fun part, before you know it, the book stuff will start making sense) Many teachers have this thing about starting with discipline and banging your way to being good one small note at a time. Sure discipline good hours of practice good.....but if you get a bad tude and don't want to play anymore.....what's the purpose. With some teachers you won't be able to play any song for a couple weeks and then it's usually something you don't want to play. I can tell if you could just take all this accumulated ability you've defined as a drummer, and put a little of that into being able to jam....you'll be a much happier camper.
    New standard of notation huh? I taught a high school band....had a couple band managers....one day one asked if he could join the drumline and participate. I forgot to mention, these twins had iq's of like 156 and 165....anyway long story short, the next year they played bass drum. In band that's four guys trying to emulate a bass line. Lot's of rests and notes here and there. They developed their own notation and had the whole show written on one piece of small paper. While the line fumbled with six or eight pieces of music during the beginning of camp, these two just read off thier little piece of paper! I think they also had the marching book incorporated into the music. That bass line by the end was one of my best!
Vince

REF

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Re: how to program to jam with friends
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2009, 12:30:03 PM »
Oh, man, I did a horse barn years ago. Between the dust and smell I about died, but the guy was very pleased in the end.

I'll google this chart and see what comes up. I am not too, too far from a Guitar Center. Got our guitar there. So, I can get back down there and see what they have.

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Re: how to program to jam with friends
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2009, 07:37:15 AM »
Do you any chat related to only music?

gmbydmit

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Re: how to program to jam with friends
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2009, 10:11:50 PM »
I lose like two years worth of posts and I'm bounced back to newb status....

and we have to deal with these friggin spammers!

that really pisses me off!

 >:(


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Re: how to program to jam with friends
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2009, 11:51:54 PM »
When I was in Ft. Collins ,Co. I met these 4 guys who would do these crazy improv. jam sessions- 3 brothers & a singer.They would get together on a Sunday,& everyone brought ALL their keys,pads,guitars,drum machines,effects ,etc. It would take 1 or 2 hours to set up & wire into a mixer (several mixers).Randy was an excellent chef & during set up he would get a big pot of curry fired up & simmering.It was a jam & food fest.Every session was recorded.Only the 4 of them were allowed--but I weasled my way into their sessions!

I came in on 104th session --they just numbered them.Nothing pre-arranged !  All improv. they would program some drum tracks ahead --but all else was improv. Somebody would start a seq. & then you just started playing.The 3 brothers played all inst.-- bass, guitar,keys & programmed beats--& switched inst. after each song.The singer had words thought out ahead of time-but sang whatever he felt like once he caught the 'mood'.They all fit in a little bedroom-but I had to set up in the living room.I only played about 2 or 3 times--I was also in some cover bands @ the time.

No rules.In fact,a beat would be going & if it ran it's course,a new beat was randomly started-overlapping,unless someone killed the first beat-very strange.They would start on top of each other -not synced,different tempos - all overlapping @ times,& everything usually just evolved.I was the only drummer that ever was allowed in,so I could start the beat in place of a machine or I could play additional perc or tuned parts - anything.So everyone had their sounds & set ups ready ,but nothing  ever discussed,just go for it.

We all had a headphone mix going.I had an octapad (pre DK ) & with an E-MU drum machine & some perc. miked up,also. ,also.Lots of effects,lots of different sound units & machines-like combining each persons studio into 1 big studio.Not talking commercial sounding music here,highly experimental.I have a dub of all my sessions with them (just a couple of times).

After we stopped playing for the day,we ate some curry & drank beer & then tore down.While we packed up we would drink beer , roll the tape & listen.It sounded more organized than you would expect,at times.Also kind of sucked at times-always different.

They played live shows like this-& sometimes could clear a room of people !! One time @ C.U. they didn't stop until their power was pulled !! I wasn't there ,but, 1 time they booked this in Cheyenne at Frontier Days (some kind of cowboy festival). The guys in cowboy hats were not amused-& I believe there was a couple cow-hands that maybe wanted to 'beat them up' a little.Luckily there was police & security,so nobody got hurt!!  I'm pretty sure they were not invited back the next year!!

Another time they booked into the college as the BT's. A student told the staff it was the "Bloody Tumors", (their band name).  They did not allow them to take the stage- canceled by a band name!  They were really nice guys though-not militant or anything.This was in 1987,& I haven't talked to them since 1989.I need to contact them & see what they are up to.I miss those guys & they have never heard Orb V. --something tells me they would like Orb (I hope).I'm experimental-but compared to BT's I sound more commercial or mainstream.

I guess I'm in the wrong thread because this should be called "HOW TO PROGRAM NOT TO JAM WITH FRIENDS !!"  So there is experimental & experi-MENTAL !!......no rules in art,though. This would be abstract art,I suppose.Not your average cup of tea.  But great tasting curry !!!!!     Did you mean 'jam' or 'improvise'  ?- is there a distinction ? ,please advise.  orb.


gmbydmit

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Re: how to program to jam with friends
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2009, 10:19:53 PM »
What are they called? I'd like to see if they are online. This would be a big help to me, because when I stand at the malletKAT, I really have no idea what to DO to actually get things going. I have transcribed to my own number system, but its time consuming.

I really just want to learn this ridiculously illogical standard notation system, frustrating and aggravating as it is to me (and millions of others down through the ages), and get it over with. 

I've been kinda trying to use this as a 'cheat sheet' to help me out, but, I've been drummer too long....notes on multiple lines are weird, but I'm tryin!

http://www.berm.co.nz/chords/piano.html

also found this on Amazon, and was thinking about getting it (thus surroounding myself with tons of more crap)!

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000E3F0B2/ref=ord_cart_shr?%5Fencoding=UTF8&m=A1YCU8BF7X7UW6&v=glance
&
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000ROIVJG/ref=ord_cart_shr?%5Fencoding=UTF8&m=A11CNA65JLHGVP&v=glance



Orb Vroomer

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Re: how to program to jam with friends
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2009, 11:11:31 PM »
Those links look real good. The 'one chart' system is handy.That first page was great because it was free,too.

I have a pamphlet style book I got @ GC. "An Alfred Handy Guide"   Piano chord dictionary by Morton Manus   www.alfredpub.com         $5.50

It's small in size & 50 pages long.The back cover has a chart with 21 chords (in each key) & a major scale chart up to a 13th.
The first 2 pages have some more info & also a Major - relative minor chart.
Any of gmbydmit's examples are real similar.I liked the small size of the pamphlet (4" X 11 " ) ,though. All of these should get you there.

Groovy baby....yeah...

vindrums

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Re: how to program to jam with friends
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2009, 11:28:55 PM »
    I like hearing this kind of talk! Drummers playing chords ahead....watch out
     And don't forget, if you have a DrumK you can use melodic mode to set these up....but the part you shouldn't forget is: you can use melodic mode to set things up, and get the 'notes in', and then you can change to another mode! The notes you set up in melodic mode will still do their best to 'be' in the new mode!
Vince

gmbydmit

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Re: how to program to jam with friends
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2009, 11:47:17 PM »
See just switching to 'Melodic Mode'...I'm not sure I even know how to do that. I need so much more time and practice and guidance  ;D on the Kat Instrucments, its not even funny!


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Re: how to program to jam with friends
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2009, 12:55:07 AM »
Vince's first post in here has a lot about chords on kats.

If you have the 3.5 manual the meoodic modes start on p65. On p. 67 is a big chart with both chords & scales. Don't use scales as mults. You can use either mults or alts for scales.That list is a really good selection of possibilities. Just set up a few pads with chords & a few with matching scales.And you can move the chords up & down with inversions by changing the root note. The "Chord Structures Available " chart has about 30 choices.

These features made it super fast & easy to get melodic & chordal songs up & going quickly.It would take several years to play these on an actual keyboard.
Give the chords longer gate times or else control the duration with a sustain pedal.(right Vince,it's in here (forum ) more than once).
The scales (jam pads) you can play fast or slow - whatever sounds good.
Your ears will tell you what works- because you've been listening to what sounds right all your life.If you use bad combinations of a chord & scales ,you'll hear it right away. It's fun & it's easier than you think.Mario or the programmers really put some good features in the kat. If you want to, just chuck those chord charts and get it going without all that. Learn how to compose after the fact. You move forward quicker.

After a while you will be able to 'compose songs' on your drumkat.If it sounds good - it's your song.If not,change what's sounds bad & fix it or start over.After you play 3 chord songs add a bridge. Vince already promised that lesson in post #1 above.

zendrumdude

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Re: how to program to jam with friends
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2009, 06:55:20 PM »
You know guys,

Although it's more work, I'd really recommend learning the THEORY behind stuff rather than just learning chord shapes... kinda the old "Give a man a fish" adage, ifyaknowwhutimean.  ;)

Here's a starting point, and if anyone is interested, I will help as much as is needed!

Starting point: The Major Scale (a series of 7 notes, which repeat)

Tonic (*This note defines what key you're in.  If it's D, then this would be called the D major scale)
2nd (up a whole step from tonic)
3rd (up a whole step from 2nd)
4th (up a half step from 3rd)
5th (up whole)
6th (up whole)
7th (up whole)
Tonic (up half from 7th)
(repeat sequence)

In our D example, here's your scale:
D E F# G A B C# (D again)

The space between the notes, measured in half steps (also called semitones) is called an INTERVAL.  Now, since this is a major scale, here's the interval pattern:

W W H W W W H (repeat) where W= whole step (2 semitones) and H= half step (semitone).  When you reach the note you started on (in our example, when you reach the next D) you have played one octave. 

I would recommend you start by constructing this scale on every note on the instrument (12 scales total before repeating, starting once on each white key and each black key).  You'll notice some interesting things: if you spell the pattern of whole and half steps shown above starting on C, all the notes will be white.  If you start on F or G, there will be exactly one black note per octave (but different ones for F and G scales).  If you start on a black key, you'll have at least 2 black keys in the scale per octave.  If you start on C#, you will play every black key (5) and 2 white ones.  Does that make sense so far?

To make chords in a major key (any key that follows the above rule), you'll play 3 notes together, "skipping" tones between... for instance, scale degrees 1, 3, 5 (you skipped 2 and 4).  That's the chord that starts on degree 1 (the name of the key you're in).  It's also called the "I" chord (Roman numeral 1).  Here's the list: (again, this is in a MAJOR key)

I: 1-3-5 (Major chord)
ii: 2-4-6 (minor chord)
iii: 3-5-7 (min)
IV: 4-6-1 (Maj)
V: 5-7-2 (Maj)
vi: 6-1-3 (min)
vii: 7-2-4 (diminished)

A major chord contains: a root, a note a Major third above (4 half steps) and a note a minor third above that (3 half steps).
A minor chord contains: a root, a note a minor third above (3 half steps) and a note a Major third above that (4 half steps).
A diminished chord contains: a root, a note a minor third above (3 half steps) and a note a minor third above that (3 half steps).

2 related concepts (next post?) would be adding 7ths to the chords, and exploring modes other than major (such as minor (aeolian) and mixolydian).

I think that's enough for now... does this help or interest anyone?  Music theory is a passion for me, and I will share what little I do know if anyone actually wants it!  Let me know.

Jer


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Re: how to program to jam with friends
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2009, 08:42:02 PM »
Ditto Mr. Z !!   I said above in post #8  -  about that chart for $5.50  ,it has all the scales (up to a 13th),plus 21 chords.It's all compacted in 50 pages. [lots faster than typing it out  - IYKWIM.]

Somewhere in here ,I said " just learn theory & forget about trying to read music".  Also something about starting an argument with that line.

Also, the circle of 5ths,& the pamphlet is all you really need.Once these non-tuned guys see the light,they'll advance quicker.
Like Z knows : {major keys here}  C has no flats or sharps,  G has 1 (F#), then D 2 (F#,C#),  A 3 sharps ( F#,C#,G#), E 4 sharps (F#,C#,G#,D#). and so on.See how a new sharp is added each time ?  Then B    5 (F#,C#,G#,D#,A#).   See the pattern ?  The progression of the circle of 5ths.

Z  take over on the flat keys !!  I hate typing !  Plus Z is probably a better drummer AND better at theory than me !!! He's the 'groovin fro'  & the 'melodic bro'.

Z  the middle of my 9 page thread has a bunch of info about learning easy songs & getting chords & words off the internet  (like A-Z chords).Most of mine came from guitar sites- & if I didn't already know the chord,I used the fret tab to see how the guit dudes voiced them.That is a little study of mine : voicing guitar chords on a keyboard.It's quite easy.
 1) Place your hands on the open strings (notes) : E<A<D<G<B<E   2)  on any guitar chord,you can ONLY fret EACH FINGER upwards from it's starting point.  On a guitar,there are variations from this,but most down in the 1st position can be played like that.If you have a good sample,it sounds very close to a guitar.Strumming fast is hard & bending & hammer ons are tricky,but a lot of guit songs can be played like this.

Piano is more involved - guitar only has 6 strings & basically 4 fingers (plus open notes) can play any chord.So the MK players can at least cop 4 notes (with 4 mallets)  ,easier than piano music which uses all 10 fingers (usually not at the same time - not a lot of 10 note chords too often).

So now we have Z,Vince & orb trying to teach some theory around here -- to drummers !!  I started up when REF was telling how frustrated he was (like me & others ) trying to read music. I mark it up all the time.I learned Mission Impossible off written piano music.A bunch of Christmas music ,too--then I used it to try & learn orchestration.That will humble you right quick.If anyone wants to hear my Christmas songs,I'll dump them somewhere.It was my little 32 piece midi orchestra..& a Baby Grand Yam Disclavier playing @ my Christmas show.Those are soooo cool -- the keys move just like a player piano & they read midi files.It has to be synced,but I figured that out how to do that in about half a day.The Yam belongs to some friends of mine - I could never afford one.

zendrumdude

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Re: how to program to jam with friends
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2009, 12:47:36 AM »
OK Orb,

Let's keep this going.. maybe it could be useful to somebody.  Here are the flats then: ("b"= flat)

C (no flats)
F (1b: Bb)
Bb (2 b's: Bb and Eb)
Eb (3b's: Bb, Eb, Ab)
Ab (4: Bb, Eb, Ab, Db)
Db (5: Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb)
Gb (6: Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Cb)
Cb (7: Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Cb, Fb)

These are called key signatures.  They don't list every note in the scale, just the ones that are altered by a # or b.  (See Orb's previous post for the sharp keys; his post and this one cover all the keys).  In other words, every scale contains one of each note (A, B, C, D, E, F, G) and perhaps some of them are sharps or flats.  This will be listed at the very beginning of the piece at the left side of the first staff.  You'd really be doing yourself a favor to know these inside out!

Jer