Author Topic: MIDItroniX and what it means to YOU  (Read 31924 times)

Orb Vroomer

  • KAT Diety
  • *****
  • Posts: 522
  • It's katalicious.Go ahead & try one.You'll like it
    • http://www.youtube.com/orbvroomer
Re: MIDItroniX and what it means to YOU
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2009, 04:24:01 PM »
I like how Vince stated this part :    "I know it doesn't help your analogy, but I don't use wooden cave man type beaters except on old fashioned cave man type drums. I use AHEAD......both implements exactly the same, they don't absorb moisture, and they never change. The best buzzess..."

I use MYHEAD,but improperly implemented..er ...imbibed,,,I some times absorb too much moisture, & then.... I DO CHANGE....The best buzzesezz.....!  :P

A while back I was realizing the short comings of the TrapKat compared to the DrumKat.Why it is lacking some of the powerful features of the DrumKat ?.....I still can't figure that one out.I did turn around at some point & praise all I liked about the TK....but now I'm wondering if I'm changing back to my original thinking.Was it purposely 'dumbed' down ?  ???

Imagine how boring the world (of music) would be all dumbed down.Everyone downloads the same exact sounds & patterns.Only tradition performances - no innovation.Factory patches & tunings are fine - if you want to sound EXACTLY like every other player.We all hate time consuming programming & tweaking of modules / software.But if your not willing to spend at least a little time with that,your music will likely be boring & stale -  been there..done that...heard it about a million times before.... :D   ::)  :P   Z wrote about this recently in here somewhere.I know what Vince thinks about it,too.  The first time I saw "Blue Man Group",they were spitting stuff out of their mouths..... :o  ..look at where they are now...Who'd have thought....   :D  I love their sideways facing grand piano hit with a GIANT MALLET. What a great 'CLUB' act that is. PVSEE what I'm talking about ? I LOVE IT !!   ;D  Vince,your a plumber....how come you didn't think of that ?  Just kidding....your the pied piper...er, paid piper....of DrumKats  8)   Who else uses a breath controller ?....raise your hands  ???

This thread is really getting scary...just in time for Halloween..Mario is gonna want to stay hidden from this thread..He'll be glad he stated how he might not respond " In this forum".   ;)  Just give us our new external FSR pads (that look like drums - with 'bare naked ladies' optional )  :o, & call it a day.   :)   Or all sparkely.  ;)  Alien model good for Halloween sales.  ;D


gmbydmit

  • Extra Special KAT Poster
  • ****
  • Posts: 493
  • legend in my own mind!
Re: MIDItroniX and what it means to YOU
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2009, 04:32:17 PM »
whoa!!!!

holy cow....I didn't mean to get anyone pissed.

I honestly feel that what I said was taken out of context. So, I will remove that post (if I can) re-think my opinions, and go from there.

sorry

Oh yeah, by the way, Thanks Mario for moving forward with some new and exciting concepts in e-drumming, whatever they may be.

Orb Vroomer

  • KAT Diety
  • *****
  • Posts: 522
  • It's katalicious.Go ahead & try one.You'll like it
    • http://www.youtube.com/orbvroomer
Re: MIDItroniX and what it means to YOU
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2009, 04:59:38 PM »
Settle down everybody ! I'm sure not peeved at anyone.Maybe an instigator,though.  ;D  Some of this 'obsolete' talk is just general discussion - not a challenge to any particular people.I just don't want to EVER lose the DrumKat.Like Vince said - IT'S STILL SO POWERFUL - even after all these years since it's last revision.
I've just  changed from having MY chain pulled, to pulling the chains of OTHERS.  ;D No need to delete anything ( although I've used that technique more than once.)  :P

BTW - like you,I'm for the new innovations.But I'm with Vkat - implement these changes in existing Kat products,if possible.Vkat's post was the most constructive post in this thread,that's why I stated I hoped his line of thinking was the standard thinking of Kat controller users.Attitudes such as 'obsolete' & talk of 'chucking' things was what got me worried.I would hope that line of thinking isn't shared by the majority of users.

A DrumKat is a terrible thing to waste.I'll never do that.This is your brain on DrumKat  :) .  This is your brain NOT on DrumKat  :'(   :P :o   ???   >:(

gmbydmit

  • Extra Special KAT Poster
  • ****
  • Posts: 493
  • legend in my own mind!
Re: MIDItroniX and what it means to YOU
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2009, 05:15:57 PM »
I agree with making changes to the existing Kat products. I was hoping to surround my drumKat with external drum triggers (FSR'S) and that would be my 'home-base' for MY personal future with e-druming.

vindrums

  • Extra Special KAT Poster
  • ****
  • Posts: 441
  • Drumming music with Vince
    • Drum Music Electronic
Re: MIDItroniX and what it means to YOU
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2009, 05:25:55 PM »
    Tim  I think I may disagree with you on some of these points about new controllers, but wasn't try to anger you! And though your opinions are different from mine, they are shared by others, as I've heard this week. I feel I'm sort of alone on this island....pretty much 75% of what I've heard believe that many aspects of the DrumKAT should be dumbed down. Most think the TrapKAT is a good example, and that you don't need the giant midi interface of the DrumKAT. Many point to Rlnd and all thier success with V's. Many many feel that making it so anybody can play....no programming, just load a file and play is important! And too many feel that if you really go down that guitar hero road with new stuff it'll do well. Don't just appeal to tweekers, or drummers, or musicians, but also make them appeal to people that can't play at all! I fell my success with the DrumKAT comes from being a tweeker, a drummer, and a musician. So any talk of dumbing down pushes me over the edge of the edge to where I can barely hang on.
     Please, realize.....I read this new thread last week, and I've had many conversations and discussions off the forum, as well as seeing some of what is written in the forum, before posting today.  
    Did not try make this about you or your opinions. I'm sure Mario wants to hear a lot of opinions.
Tim you obviously are coming from a different place in your life with KAT, and are completely entitled to your opinion, and feel bad if you choose to pull your opinions.

Orb Vroomer

  • KAT Diety
  • *****
  • Posts: 522
  • It's katalicious.Go ahead & try one.You'll like it
    • http://www.youtube.com/orbvroomer
Re: MIDItroniX and what it means to YOU
« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2009, 06:11:35 PM »
Hey professor !!  I'm still on that island with you.I'm more of a Gilligan,though.I call Mary Ann !! You can have Ginger. Or else we can tussle over Mary Ann,while Ginger poses.......a three hour gig...a three hour gig....

I just don't want Thurston Howell the 3rd to take our bamboo 'poles' away,again.I tend to get bamboozled by billionaires.

Surrounded by external FSR pads !!  That's ALWAYS been MY approach.Vince rolls that way. jrcel is in (right ? ) & Tim is in (right ? ).Ray wanted a unit like that.He'll probably settle for external FSR pads,rather than 1 super-sized  TK.(right ? )We'll get The Rain Man on board somehow.(eh ? ) I would LOVE to see ANY of Vkat's designs implemented.Forward thinking with the past & present in mind.Keep the best of the DK as it is - & just improve it from there.That's what all these years of revisions have been all about.

One quick line from Mario.....might be reassuring..."Don't worry...the DrumKat will be around for years to came". Something like that would be very nice to hear right now.Please - NO CHUCKING !!  CHUCKY BAAAAD !!!!




jrcel

  • Extra Special KAT Poster
  • ****
  • Posts: 352
  • Drumkat Turbo, DFH Superior, Emulator X, Dauz pads
    • Jim Lofrano
Re: MIDItroniX and what it means to YOU
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2009, 07:55:54 PM »
Nothing to do with this thread, but your mention of Cristofori got me wondering. Here are some recordings made with both original and reproduced Cristofori instruments. I was surprised at the sound. They had no rigid cast frames to tension the strings resulting in a quieter tone resembling a harpsichord as much as a piano. I thought it interesting, perhaps you will as well.



http://www.denzilwraight.com/crisdisc.htm

Wasn't mean as a swipe at anyone, honest. Actually I use Easton Ahead sticks. Anyway.

Orb Vroomer

  • KAT Diety
  • *****
  • Posts: 522
  • It's katalicious.Go ahead & try one.You'll like it
    • http://www.youtube.com/orbvroomer
Re: MIDItroniX and what it means to YOU
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2009, 09:01:46 PM »
I thought it was cool when you posted those Cristofori sound links.I love to check out that kind of stuff.My mistake was not being more specific.I was talking about the hammer mechanism, just to show how much it's almost exactly identical to the current pianos.It just seems unbelievable with all the CAD & modern ways,that a 300 year old mechanism was so well designed.Mostly when I get off subject...most people ignore it.Surprised me when you put up the link,I will be listening to those - I never even thought about the lack of rigid casting ,so the proper high tension would be there.Very interesting - like I said before.

My cave man wooden stick (joke) was to point out how ( for maybe 95 % of drummers ) ,wood was still the #1 stick.Although I haven't worked at a drum store for over 15 years,so I don't really have any idea.Everyone keeps talking about a 'realistic' feel,so I was assuming,most drummers think wood feels the most 'realistic'.

You & Vince must use the same sticks.He said Ahead,too.I don't even know what those are.Enlighten me on the deal with those,somebody,please.I swear,I've used the same wooden pair for about 5 years ! I'm mot joking - hitting poles & the DK is almost zero wear & tear.LISA is aluminum - but I don't scape it that often, & I guess the metal is pretty soft,even to a wooden stick.

If I ever start WRITING LIKE THIS,it's usually general venting & bitching - in general - never really at anyone.I'm usually replying to the whole thread,rather than who I'm posting after.Sorry if I seemed like a bad - swiper - upper.Thanks again for those links - I've never heard a Cristofori,just read about them & viewed them on the museum's web site.Another one of the first three is in Berlin - I guess in a museum,too - not sure.

BTW - You in on that 'surrounded' by FSRs (preferable like something round & maybe around 12" or 14" )  concept ? I'm with that myself - that's what most people wanted out of Tim's FSR DIY thread.THAT WOULD SELL - individual external FSR pads - that were large enough & looking more traditional.NOT A POLE pad,that I like so much.But it was the only player in that game,right ?  First new product should be the pad above,right ? I can't believe no one makes one right now.

Were all good.Peace & out. Orb.

.

jrcel

  • Extra Special KAT Poster
  • ****
  • Posts: 352
  • Drumkat Turbo, DFH Superior, Emulator X, Dauz pads
    • Jim Lofrano
Re: MIDItroniX and what it means to YOU
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2009, 09:17:22 PM »
Easton Ahead, great sticks. I've tried literally every alternative to wooden drumsticks ever devised by man and these guys finally nailed it.

http://www.bigbangdist.com/ahead.htm

I've talked to Mario about this but something like a real simple Drumkat that attatches via USB or midi and everything is software in the pc. The cost would drop to a very attractive point. My E4XT cost $6500, my Emulator X cost $300 with audio cards. He wants to and maybe now he can. 90% of what I do now is software based, it's way more convenient.

Orb Vroomer

  • KAT Diety
  • *****
  • Posts: 522
  • It's katalicious.Go ahead & try one.You'll like it
    • http://www.youtube.com/orbvroomer
Re: MIDItroniX and what it means to YOU
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2009, 10:07:35 PM »
I'll check out those sticks.I'm attaching some 'light weight effects' to some sticks for an experiment.If it works & looks cool.I'll make a video I guess.Maybe I'll use these Easton Ahead sticks.

I'm still a module guy.I hear you about the cost of the soft Vs hard. As long the comp. has enough speed,or streaming & whatever else - that's the way to go.My I-Mac is a 4 year old G5,with a 20" screen - not compact or road ready.I don't think I'll take it out live,but a lap top might be good in the near future.
I was looking at Proteus software,but my salesman @ Sweetw told me it didn't sound as good as the modules.It was real cheap & they kept lowering the price - I think it was down to $50.Are you happy with Emulator X  ?  On my XL-1,when you use filters & lots of channels,it takes a lot of processing & VOICES up.I always forgot - All the sweeping of filters & a bunch of CC data - it's a lot to process.Some filters have several stages & each is eating up another voice.

On my G5,I can't run this reverb on the software.It must over tax the computer - every time I turned it on - all kinds of locked up notes & stuff.The whole comp would lock sometimes.And if you hold down a sustain pedal too long - those voices pile on - & that locks it up or momentarily leaves stuck & delayed notes.I love the sounds in this package ( Fab Four).but I wouldn't trust it out live,I need a dual core I guess.Me & Vince hate to think about re- booting live.But I've ALWAYS have my whole set up on battery back up.At home or out.Not once in many years did it ever kill anything or glitch when it kicked to battery power.It's mandatory for live use.Just waiting for trouble.Black outs,....brown out are probably worse for permanent damage.Mario talked about his (RCMHall )  glitching a couple times - I guess nothing is fool proof - mine's been 100%,so far.Had to reboot live- bummer,dude.Then the show goes on...if all is well.

zendrumdude

  • The Kat's Meow
  • ***
  • Posts: 137
  • A Groovin' Fro
    • 9 & Zen Homepage
Re: MIDItroniX and what it means to YOU
« Reply #25 on: October 11, 2009, 10:12:48 PM »
You guys have all been saying some really brilliant thought-provoking things, many of which I agree with wholeheartedly.  I did want to comment on this one:

I still contend that midi spec is a problem - & I'm pretty sure that's not getting dumped.Even with the Kat products - remember how the steps had 255 levels ?  Then that had to be reduced to 0 - 128.So Kats weren't the problem - midi was.Imagine if the midi range was 0 - 255.I believe that would double the dynamic range - although it's been a while since my calculus class.But I still remember simple addition.Mario stated "capable of capturing the widest dynamic range imaginable". Without changing the midi spec,I'm really wondering how that will happen.

The dynamic RANGE is not specified by how many steps there are between the end points (I will call this "resolution"), but by how FAR apart the endpoints are (in other words, the strength of hit required to trigger them).  If you look at it as a graph, it equates to how WIDE each step of the 1-127 scale is.  Let's make up an example with easy math... say that the current system takes 1 pound of pressure to trigger vel=1, 20 pounds = vel 20, 127 pounds = 127.  With me so far?  Now, let's DOUBLE the dynamic range, still within the midi spec: 2 pounds = vel 1, 20 pounds = vel 10, 128 pounds = vel 64... see what I mean?  We'd still have 127 levels WITHIN the range, but the actual playable range, physically speaking, would be twice as wide.  We'd "top out" at a much higher hit strength, just like the real deal.  I still believe that 127 levels is plenty but would love for them to be wider... it would also even out the sound by doubling the likelihood of hitting the same velocity twice (I can see that that may be good or bad).

The reason the 255 in Katland is so cool is for velocity curves.  Curves depart from the 1:1 relationship of the linear velocity line (linear is not technically a curve).  When you start changing the curve, the math requires numbers BETWEEN the integers.  You might have an incoming velocity (hit) of 36 translating to an outgoing velocity (midi) of 31.65478 or something, which then gets shoved onto 32 to fit the midi spec.  So, in the flatter part of a curve, some of the numbers are duplicated (reducing variability between note velocities) and then in steeper parts of the curve, some numbers are skipped (more erratic response).  The Kat method doubles the resolution by allowing twice as many levels at the incoming end.

Bottom line: resolution is not the issue, IMHO... but the controller's RANGE (how soft it can detect to where it tops out) IS.

My $.02!

Jer

zendrumdude

  • The Kat's Meow
  • ***
  • Posts: 137
  • A Groovin' Fro
    • 9 & Zen Homepage
Re: MIDItroniX and what it means to YOU
« Reply #26 on: October 11, 2009, 10:21:12 PM »
You know, I went through an AHEAD phase in college.  I didn't like what they did to my ride cymbal sound (acoustic cymbals, caveman-style!).  Seemed to "deaden" the sound somehow.  Sounded great on everything else.  I am guessing that it had something to do with the topheavy nature of the AHEADS.  I also didn't like them for cross-stick, but I think they have special sleeves for that purpose nowadays.  I quit using them.  May have to try it for e-drumming again though...

I remember one time I was using them for pep band in a HUGE basketball arena, and I broke one.  Yep.  Snapped off the aluminum shaft inside the plastic sleeve.  I was shocked for sure! :o

Jer

Orb Vroomer

  • KAT Diety
  • *****
  • Posts: 522
  • It's katalicious.Go ahead & try one.You'll like it
    • http://www.youtube.com/orbvroomer
Re: MIDItroniX and what it means to YOU
« Reply #27 on: October 11, 2009, 10:34:20 PM »
Yeah, you nailed it Z.  Just like any resolution - like a slow sampling rate- we know what that does.I see the explanation of the kat's 255 steps. (figured the designers had a reason & purpose) - that's why Kats are so dag good.What do the others (R & Y ) have for steps ?

If I've been hearing correctly - the hi hat input has 8 levels ( or the module set up ? ).Seems that a CC targeting decay length would give a 0 - 128 range - the CC controller hits every step- no skipping levels of resolution.The module has to be tweaked a bit,but not much.Wouldn't that be better than just 8 levels ? I'm just asking, cause I've never used the hi hat for a hi hat - I'm usually modulating  a synth with my hat pedal.& my Y pedal.

Z.  Did you just call us brilliant ?  That's SO way over rated.Remember - we're all dumm dwummers.Are we  MUSICIANS ?  A drumKat allows a drummer to be a musician.All elements represented - rhythm,melody & harmony ,with dynamics thrown in for good measure. Bend it like Bonham !!  ;)

vindrums

  • Extra Special KAT Poster
  • ****
  • Posts: 441
  • Drumming music with Vince
    • Drum Music Electronic
Re: MIDItroniX and what it means to YOU
« Reply #28 on: October 11, 2009, 10:35:55 PM »
   Thanks for the link....I didn't know they were the guys with the holes. I've seen ovals and 2 inch before and wondered where? I want to change the hole in my bass to a 2 inch....of course there's a 4 inch in there now.
   When I was using wood on the KAT, they would last forever. Even if you match your sticks well, one is always different. Even though they don't get nicked with all rubber, they still gain water, and eventually feel dead. Not overnight, but in a year or two. Point is they are always changing.
   With Ahead, you can feel your energy go down the stick to the tip from your nodal point and hands. They play buzzes better than anything! I did worry about hitting too hard, .....I changed the tips to the big round nylon tip, so hitting the rubber they were just like perfect mallets. I can't play acoustics with them though, they make the toms and snare sound great, but, I feel like I might crash a notch through my cymbals. (like in a cartoon) Also, as Jer mentioned, on real drums, you enter the possibility of breakage. On my KAT though, they're like part of the nstrument.
   I like that simple DRumKAT idea.....that would sell a lot and I could see it being cheap. Great for studios and others that are software based. That's still years off for me!
   Very interesting and very accurate explanation of 255, the curves and the dynamic range Jer! Very simple and thorough!
And yes ORB, not thinking about reboot live in front of audience. I'm glad that's how things are starting to go for the kids with this modern stuff, but I'm an old guy, and the people I play with would never never never go for that. I have not yet seen anyone perofrm using software that didn't have any problems in a gig. I'm sure it's possible, I just haven't seen one! But I don't get out that much because I'm old.
   Yeah; that brilliant thing tickled!
Vince

vindrums

  • Extra Special KAT Poster
  • ****
  • Posts: 441
  • Drumming music with Vince
    • Drum Music Electronic
Re: MIDItroniX and what it means to YOU
« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2009, 11:35:08 PM »
   About the hat questions....I'm not sure if I'm understanding everything Orb, but;
   You can set your hats to do 128 if you want....It would be: ftcntrl, with pressure underneath, and set to cc #4 and of course the range set to 128.
But when you think about it, how many samples do you need? Think about other CD's and other drummers.....some get by with just open and closed. I think Jer does that on zendrum and it sounds fine. Some guys you can also hear rides in sloshy hats.....But how many samples do you need? All my act uses for hats is six samples....real tight, regular, sloshy, super sloshey, part open and full open. Sure some jazz guys have tricks, and ways of nuancing the hats, but listening to most music, you'll be hardpressed to actually hear six different distinct samples in a tune. As long as these are grouped in your sound module, it will sound smooth if you use 2 or 3 samples.....128 might be overkill
   And thanks for the kind mention of my album Orb, and by the way, I think I was only using four samples for hats in those days. I think I've told the story before, but once I got a call from a guy that had seen me play acoustics, and when he needed a drummer he called me. He kept mentioning the album and how great the drumming was......and who was playing guitar? ahhhhh me. he started to become confused. Yes, I drummed the whole album....And how big are your 'drums'? .it took time for him to put it all together, and when it came out they were e-drums, he no longer wanted me for the job. He loved the album, and was gushing, and then he wouldn't even stop by the house to see me play because I scared him to death.....Anyway; many people thought they were real drums....and many didn't put it together for years (unless they saw me play) that I drummed the whole record! No really; I drummed every bit of it....yes I drummed all the parts.....sounds like Abbott and Costello!
Vince