Author Topic: MIDItroniX and what it means to YOU  (Read 31996 times)

Orb Vroomer

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Re: MIDItroniX and what it means to YOU
« Reply #30 on: October 11, 2009, 11:59:43 PM »
What I mean by the 128 steps, just that a CC value for adding more & more sloppy decay (longer  - shorter ).Then the few other varieties you mentioned - super tight closed,normal closed,etc.

 plj has the big cymbal library - in software.VERY LARGE files & lots of different samples & WAY LONG decays.Better have a good computer for streaming that variety.Usually more (other)  programs are running ,too.I LOVE my hardware.It's semi-obsolete.Not to me - you can buy them all day - Proteus modules - cheap.Back in the day ,they were a bit pricey.I got one for $60 & one for $150. 16 midi channels - 128 voices.

vindrums

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Re: MIDItroniX and what it means to YOU
« Reply #31 on: October 12, 2009, 12:45:56 AM »
  Yes I got all that....I'm just saying that when these are assigned in an executable group you don't need all that. Because they're in a group, they will act like a smooth hat even if there are only two or three or six samples used. Jeremy sounds like a real hat is used, but I think he said just two. The key is, if they're grouped, then they will react as smoothly as possible with each other. (even in ancient modules)
   And I understand the benefit of multi samples, but if they're selling you 128 different hat samples that are just more and more sloshey IMO they're wasting time and memory. Now I can still see where there is use for hundreds if not thousands of hat samples, (differnt areas, different amounts of open, different stick hit, shank hits, bell hits,  etc.) there is no practical use for just 128 different levels of open or closed. Our old modules do that smoothly already.
   One thing I did want to mention about the DrumKAT Hat, is the chicks and splash....i can't get that from any other brand! It changed the way I approach playing drumset. Now, I understood the possibilities of splashes, from the old jazz. I watched Joe Harris up close like 13 gigs. Splashes were a big part. In my life, new beats weren't good at doing that. Too heavy! so I knew nobody really doing that stuff in modern times. When the KAT started doing it it changed everything. The DrmKAT does it so naturally....but with more control. Now, I can do a lick and either make it sound like any ole drumset lick....or I can actually play a hat line using chicks and splashes, along with the lick making it sound like more of an ensemble.
Vince

zendrumdude

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Re: MIDItroniX and what it means to YOU
« Reply #32 on: October 13, 2009, 06:14:02 PM »
Agreed: you probably don't really NEED that many samples for realistic HH performance.  In BFD2, you get:

Closed (Tip/shank)
1/4 open (T/s)
1/2 open (T/s)
3/4 open (T/s)
Open (T/s)
Foot Chick

I have found that to be PLENTY.  And as Vin mentioned, on my Zendrum I literally have open and closed, that's it.  (I do have a shank hit velocity-faded in on the hardest closed hits).  It's not as expressive as my TrapKat setup for HH, but no one has ever complained that the hats weren't real enough!

Jer

tmleith

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Re: MIDItroniX and what it means to YOU
« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2009, 04:29:56 PM »
I don't really have a philosophy of technology when it comes to my e-drumming, but here are a couple of things that I think would be cool, and/or observations:

(1)  I'd love it if my Trapkat had pads with multi-zones.  Maybe at the size of the pads it's not practical, I don't know.  I've never played the mandala, but it seems like a cool concept.  Although I put rim shot sounds on the rim pads of the TK, I'm not really able to take advantage of differing snare and snare edge sounds.  Multi-zones would also make salsa-style music easier to play, assuming the drum sampling people would ever sample a cowbell at varying places on the bell.  Even if they did, right now it'd be hard to make it work on the TK.  If you're familiar with the way to play a mambo bell, you'll know what I mean:  you need to hear a gradation of closed to open as you hit the four strokes increasingly toward the open end of the bell.  There's really no good way to do that on my TK, that I can figure.

(2)  I'm all about keeping things intuitive.  To some, this means dumbing it down.  If you're a tweaker, that's probably a valid worry.  As I'm not -- at least no more than necessary to get things how I want them -- the more easily I can get to playing music, the better.  I'm one of those folks who probably uses 10 - 20% of the TK's capabilities.  I've just got a limited brain bandwidth, and limited time:  it's hard enough to get my chops together, figure out my way around Logic, write some music, etc.  I don't want to have to mess with my hi-hat for countless hours to get it sounding and feeling right.  The lack of an officially supported editor falls in this category, in my opinion.  In this day and age, people are just so much more used to adjusting parameters via their computer screen.  I'd probably mess with TK setting more if I had that option. 

Maybe I have a bit of a philosophy of technology after all.  Seems the best approach would be to integrate ease of use and flexibility to the greatest extent possible, no?  And not that I'm complaining about the ease of use of the TK.  It's not bad at all.  Now the Muse Receptor!  That's another issue altogether.

Just a few thoughts.

Tom

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Re: MIDItroniX and what it means to YOU
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2009, 06:15:13 PM »
Quote
There's really no good way to do that on my TK, that I can figure.
Two spring to mind quickly.  (Assuming you had the samples...)  (1) Select using breath controller (if you need to keep foot controller just for hihat).  (2) You could reserve the upper levels of the velocity range for the extra three samples.

And there may be some more fancy stuff the TK4 can do that I don't know about...

Vkat

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Re: MIDItroniX and what it means to YOU
« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2009, 01:03:35 AM »

BTW - like you,I'm for the new innovations.But I'm with Vkat - implement these changes in existing Kat products,if possible.Vkat's post was the most constructive post in this thread,that's why I stated I hoped his line of thinking was the standard thinking of Kat controller users.Attitudes such as 'obsolete' & talk of 'chucking' things was what got me worried.I would hope that line of thinking isn't shared by the majority of users.
Orb, thanks for the kind words.  It's nice to be appreciated and have others with the same line of thinking.  I'm always trying to look at ways to improve things.  

« Last Edit: December 12, 2009, 08:34:26 AM by Vkat »

tmleith

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Re: MIDItroniX and what it means to YOU
« Reply #36 on: October 26, 2009, 03:50:05 PM »
Quote
There's really no good way to do that on my TK, that I can figure.
Two spring to mind quickly.  (Assuming you had the samples...)  (1) Select using breath controller (if you need to keep foot controller just for hihat).  (2) You could reserve the upper levels of the velocity range for the extra three samples.

And there may be some more fancy stuff the TK4 can do that I don't know about...

Thanks for the ideas.  As for (1), I've never used the breath controller, and hadn't considered it at all.  The breath controller always seems a little bizarre to me, but it might be worth experimenting with.  For (2), you're right, in my mambo bell example, that might work.  Since the pattern actually accents while you're hitting it closer toward the open part of the bell, it could work out relatively naturally.  It's harder to see the "snare center / snare edge" distinction working, though, since you'd presumably be hitting the center or edge at a bunch different velocities.

Thanks again!
Tom


REF

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Re: MIDItroniX and what it means to YOU
« Reply #37 on: November 12, 2009, 07:25:21 AM »
Mind boggling (for me) as usual.

No, I have not sold my acoustic cymbals yet. May not until it really shows itself to be the last resort.

It seems to me, with all that is out there in tech land right now, new inventions morphing at exponential rates, whatever this new venture entails will have to cover some pretty intense ground. Youtube is filled with crazy stuff. I mean Star Trek stuff.

It seems to me, unless you can sit me between two poles and let me produce any drum sound I want while playing air drums, anything "new," anything solid, is slated to be obsolete pretty quickly nowadays. Technology is fast track. From where Simmons started to where we are today is not that great a leap. But from where we are today to where things can be even a couple years from now is another matter.

Mario mentioned the amount of investiture, and that's all it is - money. If the funds can be found, almost anything will be invented now and in the future.

I am quite serious about playing invisible percussion "sound fields." There are already sound field instruments out there. Perhaps I was enlightened to that by a link posted right here on this board.

Because electronics can be/is very intimidating for people like me - with dozens of terms and specs covering all the parameters available to produce sounds, to me, anything new will have to cover the 'user friendly' category, big time.

Hi hats came up back some posts. At this point, using the Hart, and using the TDW20, I still cannot play a natural sounding hi hat. If the Roland actually had a selection of looser sounding hats to begin with, much would be improved.

For me, putting PC specs into a compact module is the next step. Or producing some brand new type of device that is a morph between module and PC. Super simple to use, and truly opens up the world of percussion instruments available to acoustic players, which currently is not truly available without. Otherwise, it's just more of the same. Until the drummer/percussionist can have available the same thing a keyboard player has, at the same price point, it's hard for me to get excited about new prospects in electronic drumming.

REF

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Re: MIDItroniX and what it means to YOU
« Reply #38 on: November 12, 2009, 07:32:33 AM »
BTW, good to "see" everybody. Been super busy. House has sold, been working at another house we are moving to, have to now pack-up and get out, unpack, etc., etc., etc. Haven't played my TK in weeks. All packed away already. Won't feel the touch of sticks for awhile yet, either.

Carry on, brethren.

DrumMan

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Re: MIDItroniX and what it means to YOU
« Reply #39 on: November 28, 2009, 05:12:09 PM »
Ok, I have a few pennies to add--ORB--check in with drumtech,your revered polekat is,and will be available-yes,they still live,my son got the most recently assmbled hatkat and talked with the owner for a few hours,hang on,they are surviving.VIN-I too,am a hardware based player,afraid of software,even with a ups and line conditioner,going down on a gig,which even a $200.00 casio keyboard would never do.RE: the TrapKat,I had played MIDI drums since they were invented.Octapads,SPD-11 all cool-but small,and the drumkat,although advanced in function,does NOT offer the playability of the TrapKat.It has been proven we use far more than the overstated"10%",and I will post later with the reference for the empirical data crowd vs. there are those that say"----......For those of us who were cognitive adults when the TrapKat was introduced under the KAT name,before Alternate Mode(yes,I keep old flyers & catalogs) a simple viewing of the port side front reveals  machined holes for multiple input/output configurations for then Future developments. Why this never took place, or the TURBO TrapKat never evolved-is known,I'm sure,only by Mario and the engineers at AM>a terrific waste-to think the biggest,most playable controller-has less power than it's smaller,older sibling.Confusing to me,but who knows?-Perhaps we will see some future(hopefully near in my lifetime) powerful updates for the big Old TrapKat. The new one, I'm sure plays great-is mine obsolete? Heck no,(thanks Vince for this one) I have only scratched the surface of it's minor capabilities( Ray Frigon-good for you man,for showing us even more of the TrapKat)-so, I too,like new stuff-but still play an acoustic kit,in addition to my OLD TrapKat, which I expect to use for as many years as I have left to play.Then, I will add a new one,and maybe a Mallet & Pan to my rig.
Sticks- I've broken the Aheads twice, and went back to what works-Vic Firth wood tips-for me.If they work for you cool,but then again,I also prefer Crystal Light tea to the"real thing." 8)----peace to all, hate to none,arguments vs. disscusion-the latter.                                                                                        DrumMan                                                                                                      Trapkat, Motif, hat&Kat pedals,wood sticks

Peace to

vindrums

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Re: MIDItroniX and what it means to YOU
« Reply #40 on: December 02, 2009, 09:15:49 PM »
    I'm glad someone brought up the ahead sticks again.......
 Recently, I injured my ankle so couldn't do anything. So I brought down the vdrum snare and practiced a bunch......Now in the past M has said and no one disputed, that we could use whatever sticks......After a couple weeks banging on this drum, I'm rewondering. Yes, rewondering. These might be too much to be hammering away on an electrical-tronic drum pad! I can play much better buzzes with them, and much better dynamic extremes, but boy, when playing loud they are really exerting much force. Much more than I can do with a street stick.
    Then recently someone was talking about these suspended quartz things or whatever and how fragile they are, and it got me to thinking.....I paid for a bunch of those repairs. Maybe caused by way of the aheads?
    A big part in my developement was using hingers drum sticks (aluminum).....I really learned something about drumming that winter. Like how to play buzz rolls.
 Anyway; so after a couple dasterdly weeks playing on the vdrums snare (with no sound) I became quite confident, and feeling a little tough for my age.....then sat down at the real drums......and was struck into reality! All that practice, and it can only be done on the vdrums, which I'm not using presently. Oh well..At least I kept the hands moving!
Vince

gmbydmit

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Re: MIDItroniX and what it means to YOU
« Reply #41 on: December 05, 2009, 04:13:43 PM »
Hey Vin-Dude!,

I been practicing on V-drums for years, still after all this time I'm still not sure I love em or hate em...but like you said....keeps hands from being idle.. :)

I also used to use a pair of Ahead sticks occasionally, never like them so I gave them to 21 year old drummer dude I know....figured they were for Heavy Metal anyway.

On a totally unrelated note:

I'm bummed cuz there's no Miditronix goodies available for Christmas!!! :(

tcanedy

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Re: MIDItroniX and what it means to YOU
« Reply #42 on: January 05, 2010, 12:43:56 PM »
Since my first Dynachord and PPG 360 experience I have thought midi (or vc or pulse at the time) controllers for percussion instruments should evolve to a different technical style of playing. The development in the last 25 years have been fabulous. But we still think like cave men when it comes to approaching these new opportunities.

Maybe the new technologies mentioned in this thread will be the catalyst to overcoming the mental hurdles to innovative sound source and controller adaptations.
When I play a controller I am no longer a drummer, or vibist. But what am I?

Bring on the new innovations asap.
I'm buying in mid April and would prefer the newest I can get.

-Todd
 

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Re: MIDItroniX and what it means to YOU
« Reply #43 on: February 19, 2011, 01:59:30 PM »
Guys.  I have no intention of dumbing down future controllers.  That doesn't mean that MIDItroniX shouldn't think about making a simple drumKAT for the iphone or whatever.

Here's the biz side of it.   Making things that REALLY sell allows us to "afford" to design instruments for the artform.  On the books is a new concept for drum controllers that will last another 20 years before needing to be updated.  We just have to change our dynamics from "scraping the barrel every month, to feeling comfortable" to allow us to innovate in these esoteric directions.

I am sure that you can see that the "inHEAD" should be our ticket to get us to the level of comfortableness.  Just so that you know........

We are working on 16 (that's sixteen) new products.  We hope ALL of them will be out to market by year's end.  Sorry, can't mention them now.

MIDItroniX on its logo says....."Expression by Design".   That's my goal and hang in there

Jim McDougall

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Re: MIDItroniX and what it means to YOU
« Reply #44 on: March 17, 2011, 11:23:39 PM »
I have been away from the board for a while and have been catching back up on this thread and the bantering that went on on page two.  There were some important points made but I feel that discussion missed a very critical point because everyone was looking at things from the point of view of an experience percussionist which you all are (unlike myself who is a musical hacker). Professionally I live in the industrial software business as a project manager, software tyroubleshooter and designer/business analyst just as a bit of perspective to my following comments.  As you have pointed out the DrumKat is incredibly powerful in its capabilities and the TrapKat not so blessed. I would also agree that very few people use more than 25% of the features they have. The question that was hanging was WHY?   What has been totally missing from these products is a friendly user interface. The method of programming these units, I would describe as arcane ( sorry Mario but the truth hurts !) To configure a device of this complexity with a 4 line character LCD and hitting on pads is disfunctional (Usable for V1 and V2 maybe, but with the current feature set, not).  What is direly needed is a layered PC/Mac based user interface that is structured in layers. Each layer represents an increasing level of complexity/detail.  The appeal of the V-Drum and TD type units is that I can plug in , set a few basic parameters and start drumming. I will admit that they have a starting advantage because they assume all the inputs are their own pads. However, I believe that we should be able to midi our Kat to our computer, load a software package and run through a set of simple configuration screens , midi channel, default pad assignments, pad brand/model and have a working Kat in a few minutes. Then if I want to start exploring, I can take each area/pad and drill down to increasing levels of complexity to further tune or manipulate the functionality.  There have been attempts in the past -- MidiQuest used to support the Kat controllers and there is a very basic configuration program that was developed for the TrapKat but version changes and the non-availability of the sysex structure to go with these changes has rendered all of these obsolete.  Don't get me wrong - I love the Kat family, otherwise I would have 2 MidiKitis, 1 Drumkat EZ, 2 DrumKats and a TrapKat. Yet I still am building a MegaDrum. Why ? Because, for all of its sophistication, none of them really handle twin trigger chokeable cymbals well and with Megadrum, I can load a software package and configure the system in a short period of time with an easily understood user interface.