Author Topic: Do you drum it, strum it or stroke it?  (Read 14328 times)

pljones

  • KAT Diety
  • *****
  • Posts: 1293
  • NINJAMmer
    • The Dwarfen Realm
Do you drum it, strum it or stroke it?
« on: October 08, 2009, 04:15:16 PM »
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/8294355.stm?ls

Well, the big one is a bit on the pricey side and no nice pic of the Pico.  Oh and a "bad dress sense" warning applies.

I can certainly see the appeal as an ex-clarinettist, bad keys player and drummer...

Orb Vroomer

  • KAT Diety
  • *****
  • Posts: 522
  • It's katalicious.Go ahead & try one.You'll like it
    • http://www.youtube.com/orbvroomer
Re: Do you drum it, strum it or stroke it?
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2009, 08:21:34 PM »
You didn't mention 'blow it'.....but that was probably over the edge,being as we just had some of that purged out of the forum recently.

But seriously...THAT'S WHAT I CALL A CONTROLLER !!  

I couldn't get the second demo to play- is it me ?  or what ? I still think a Chapman stick is one of the best instruments around,especially for a single performer,although no drum sounds are involved.If I could play the stick..I'd probably attach something to it or get a bunch of foot pedals going.

Which type of 'bad keys' do you play plj ?  A Casio ? babababababaaaad......to the bone !! What day were you born ?  I think your a thoroughly good player,george, er , I mean plj ...you still hawk wind out of your clarinet ?

Mind if we look at some other instruments/performers in here,plj ?  Not as high tech as yours,plj...but still worth a little peek.


Check out this duo playing in a little club in St. Lou.  It's Sally T's little all age deli .She was the tour chef for the Greatful Dead for 8 years before she opened this place.It's gone now....I played there several times...favorite place I ever performed as Orb.......

No strum or stroke or blow....but hammer on,dude...ooh & a drum,too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dC5qBB1lCs&feature=related
« Last Edit: October 08, 2009, 08:41:18 PM by Orb Vroomer »

REF

  • KAT Diety
  • *****
  • Posts: 562
  • I'm a llama!
Re: Do you drum it, strum it or stroke it?
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2009, 08:05:00 AM »
This is something of what I have mentioned about technology moving quickly now. And even this device is rather manual, still. But the options are amazing nonetheless.

At some point I believe entire new systems of music notation are going to arise, making it very simple for people to play all kinds of new musical instruments designed around these new systems. Software will transpose centuries of former music into newer formats and notation. What once seemed completely sci-fi is going to become common place, and probably in our day.

Orb Vroomer

  • KAT Diety
  • *****
  • Posts: 522
  • It's katalicious.Go ahead & try one.You'll like it
    • http://www.youtube.com/orbvroomer
Re: Do you drum it, strum it or stroke it?
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2009, 01:09:04 PM »
We will definitely see more amazing controllers being released in the near future.Although their ability to make musical performances simpler,I'm not too sure about that aspect.
 
Percussion has to be struck - usually by hand or stick.We talked about 'air drums' in here,too.Is it considered percussion to strike an invisible trigger ? No contact is actually made,but 'something' is being triggered.Remember though....try a buzz roll on that...or any type of stick drag...It seems impractical for standard style drumming.No way we can play as fast with no stick bounce,right ? So maybe some different technique would be used.....but at this point .... e drums & drums are hit with sticks (or hands).Call it what we want...but we always 'strike' a pad,button,etc.  EVERY controller out there (for drummers) works like this.

Alternative notation systems are all over the place.In Digital Performer there are about 4 ways to view musical data.Still,none make it easier to 'read' or perform better.It just depends on which note (data) format works best for each user while editing.Software is available now that scans standard notation & inputs it into a sequencer track.At that point,it can be midi data,or any other notation formats in the sequencer.

Now....back to the future.....check this out....notice anything missing in this futuristic instrument ?

http://www.youtube.com/user/AnimusicLLC#p/u/0/vgE0m5C5PCc

REF

  • KAT Diety
  • *****
  • Posts: 562
  • I'm a llama!
Re: Do you drum it, strum it or stroke it?
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2009, 06:24:15 PM »
I stumbled upon both the Animusic DVDs in Sam's Club a year ago. Fantastic. I love the stuff. My grandson is completely mesmerized by them. And not much stops him for more than a minute or two.

What's missing? You mean musicians? The instruments are the musicians. Musical robotics, basically, and well within reach in a decade I expect.

For me, I think I can play air drums faster than on solid surface, especially my feet. And I believe buzz rolls and dragged notes will find their way into air drumming technology by virtue of how a sound field is established/penetrated/manipulated, much like a Theremin is manipulated or something like that. Programming comes into play, as well. Ah ... back to Theremins again. The instrument by which all exotic newbies are measured.

Most alternative notation systems I am aware of (around 40 of them now), are all still based around the standard staff, using the same western note system. I think something will come along to shatter that in some way forthcoming. I think music will revolutionize in different ways soon enough. There are so many people down through the centuries who felt/feel the current western system is more of an aggravation than anything else, especially in trying to teach people to play instruments.

There's an instrument out there now, I forget the name. Jordan Rudess plays one. You just use hand pressure along the various sections. Very cool. Of course, percussion isn't played in such a fashion. It's an impact instrument.

So, if it remains a physical impact instrument for time to come, the thing that remains, for me, is simplicity of use. And I tend to think virtual drumming will emerge at some point. What you "see," what you think will be incorporated into what you play with hands and feet.

I haven't gotten a Modern Drummer in a long time. Saw one at Krogers the other night and picked it up. I noticed Roland has released a new version of the TD20. Not sure if that is just a module with the new sound card installed, or all new stuff, but, people waited forever for the card to come out, now the module itself appears to have been revamped. Everything becomes obsolete in a year.

I am intrigued what Mario and company are coming out with. Here again, people are worrying if it will make their new Kats obsolete when they just purchased them in the last year. How much money do people have to constantly make changes, especially with software coming out at a quantum leap clip? I'd like to try drum software, but the investment ... too much. And there's really nothing that can be done about it. It's advancement happening faster than people every thought possible.

But like I said on the other thread - give drummers what keyboardists have at the same price point. That would be a great improvement, I believe.


Orb Vroomer

  • KAT Diety
  • *****
  • Posts: 522
  • It's katalicious.Go ahead & try one.You'll like it
    • http://www.youtube.com/orbvroomer
Re: Do you drum it, strum it or stroke it?
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2009, 07:54:38 PM »
Yeah...Animusic is Animazing,eh ?  It's cool too,because usually new designs are drawn out or cad animated.These guys are like Blue men on steroids.

Missing ? Yeah the MUSICIANS have been replaced with the musebots . ( I've never heard of 'musebots'. )  People have crazy stuff they build,too.I saw a Burning Man,circa 2007,& this guy built this HUGE robotic arm - controlled by sensors on YOUR arm,with this device he attached.You could then pick up a car & drop it from 20 or 30 feet up & crush it like a beer can.(These guys have a lot of time & $ on their hands,I guess.)

I can't wait to see you ,Ray,air drum a solo - just like your contest video.It sounds very difficult to me.The only technique I can think of is breaking a beam with the UP & DOWN stroke of a stick.That could be a very fast technique,if perfected & you could synchronize your 2 hands.If you can trigger on both (up & down) strokes,you should be able to play twice as fast - with one hand.New ways to play (or instruments) can take years of rehearsal......

There are some good software for notation ( & learning).You know - the keys you play light up on the screen- & the screen can light your way to the notes.But we're kind of stuck with the standard system.We give babies & kids those little color coded keys - that's probably the easiest method I've seen.Still,little stuff like that - we label or pads sometimes....we just need our crutches & cheat sheets or good old fashioned memorization.

Now,software.It's really just like hardware - you get what you pay for.But soft starts real cheap - $50 t6o $100 bucks.Probably want to spend at least around $500,minimum.Like modules,the $2,000 model/software will sound better.Memory = $.   ALWAYS.  If you want a HUGE library,then you spend big $.

Now Ray...what does a keyboard controller have over a DK Turbo ?  I think the DK blows away any keyboard.I had to spend $2,100 for my Rol RD-700GX.  It sounds & feels great - the weighted keys are killer.Rol also makes a $6,000 model.I never played one - GC doesn't have any sitting out.I realize I'm talking about a key with sounds built in,but still,that's a lot of $ compared to any Kat.When I tried out the Yam at $1,000,it felt terrible & sounded horrible.Good keyboards are all over $2,000 (IMHO).

Attack of the theremin reference......so when you said I was a novelty....like a theremin...... you meant I was playing......  "the instrument by which all exotic newbies are measured".
I can live with that. :D

REF

  • KAT Diety
  • *****
  • Posts: 562
  • I'm a llama!
Re: Do you drum it, strum it or stroke it?
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2009, 04:36:02 AM »
Ahahaha. There ya go.

Seriously though, the keyboardist gets so many more sounds and features to their synth than drummers get with theirs. I own a number of syths now, both old and new, and I think to myself, here is the sound list - pianos, strings, wind, synth, vocals, on and on. Workstations do it all. Is there an edrum work station? Just think of the TK player being able to play melodies, chords, and record it all on board. 24 notes to use. One could construct some pretty cool music on board. Might cost 3k, like workstations do, but what they do is phenomenal, no? And really, in the keyboards I have owned, programming seems so much less than edrums.

The last time I played my TK before I packed it up for the move I noticed that when I hit pad 8, a tom, pad 3, my ride cymbal, could be heard underneath, and I thought, here we go. Problems with electronics again. I'm tired of it. I really am. It's too much money to pay for problems. That's why I cannot get excited about new stuff that comes out. Bugs. Tons of bugs.

I may end up just selling everything and stick with acoustics. For me, edrums are just not where they need to be for me to make any more investment in them.



« Last Edit: December 07, 2009, 04:38:38 AM by REF »

Orb Vroomer

  • KAT Diety
  • *****
  • Posts: 522
  • It's katalicious.Go ahead & try one.You'll like it
    • http://www.youtube.com/orbvroomer
Re: Do you drum it, strum it or stroke it?
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2009, 01:53:29 PM »
Please don't leave e-drumming,Ray.Your not serious about that.We all feel like chucking it from time to time.We all share the joys & frustrations of the computer world.Still,I can't live without electronics (musical ).

Yes ,keyboards DO have a greater variety of sounds than drum modules.But with midi,it's all interchangeable.Why did I shelve my Rol R8 ? And replace it with a Proteus.Well,if I had more mixer channels,I'd still use the R8.I could lug out 2 racks (& mixers ) for live shows.But the Proteus (with 4 sound set proms) has WAY more sounds than an R8.Even just drums- I didn't sacrifice any drum sounds.
 
Workstations.Those are great - all in one.I've never owned a workstation...with all the features on Dig Perf. ,it never made sense to have an inferior sequencer program.But here's the deal - whatever your complete rig is - that IS YOUR workstation.For me -- pick a source to play (keys or kats), select a midi channel (sound) ,& hit record.I sometimes will program beats off of the keys...but the DK is just begging for that.

The workstation concept is good.That's why all those little buttons ( for beats/drum sounds) got added on.THAT'S the drum controller portion of the instrument.So ask yourself : Do I want to perform with pads & pedals ?  Or do I perform (program) with little push buttons ? (a Dk or TK workstation would still have the pads). That's why I suspect e-drummers would prefer separate devices over the workstation.

The kats seem to need more memory.The Turbo runs out of memory before it runs out of kits.There is also very little memory dedicated to the motifs.So without some major changes,I don't see any of the present kats turning into workstations.

The iphone has an app for composing music.That's your compact workstation.Even in a steel case,how much could it weigh ? Is Miditronix releasing anything that small & powerful ? Since we're competing with Guitar Hero......don't think that these com. companies can't smell $.    Fn DJ Hero---WTF ---- WOW --- pretend to be the guy who is pretending to play a disc.  How much farther are we going to dumb down ? I've got a new one " GUITAR TECH HERO" . Pretend to replace & tune a string. Or how about "Rock Agent Hero"
There may be kids lurking in here....but...how long until " ROCK GROUPIE HERO " ?   HMMMM.....how would you collect points ?.......ages 18 & up.

REF

  • KAT Diety
  • *****
  • Posts: 562
  • I'm a llama!
Re: Do you drum it, strum it or stroke it?
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2009, 06:24:41 AM »
Well, considering my back and knees, the whole purpose o going back to electronics was to deal with footprint issues, and more compact rig. But, with all the problems that arise, I don't know if it is worth it. Do keyboard forums have the same array of constant problems arising in their instruments and controllers? I don't know.

Much of the time it seems compatibility problems, or just the time it takes to program, which is my biggest concern. I don't have the time. So, for me, it has to work "out of the box" so to speak, and when edrums come with that kind of ease of use, I'll be more excited. Right now, all I am looking forward to is resetting up all the stuff and wondering how that pad issue of 8 and 3 is going to work out.

To the original post, these guys have come up with quite a rig in these instruments. It's a real achievement to have access to such a wide array of sound possibilities on one controller.

In my TK world, I wish there was an add-on arc of rim pads which could be set on a cymbal stand or attached to the underside of the TK. It would basically follow the outside form of the TK, but sit up and away a little bit, plug into the TK, and give the user another bunch of pads for sounds. Or, come up with a bigger TK that would wrap around the player somewhat, like regular drums do. The extra weight would be minimal with the new lightweight body. So, you'd have the regular TK and the TK PLUS model. Or the Cockpit model.

And then, of course, my wish that they just come out with a large finger drum model. 36 triggers instead of 24. Maybe the new stuff will have one in the line-up. 

But, alas, the new stuff is the boiling pot now, I guess. Will it be the "wow" they are hoping for? Are people going to sell their current rigs to then get the new stuff? New learning curves. New languages. More abbreviations for dozens of tech terms. It'll never stop. THAT is why acoustic drums will always be around.

spottyscotty

  • Extra Special KAT Poster
  • ****
  • Posts: 295
  • Nothing beats hitting rubber membranes repeatedly
Re: Do you drum it, strum it or stroke it?
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2009, 07:09:32 AM »

I haven't gotten a Modern Drummer in a long time. Saw one at Krogers the other night and picked it up. I noticed Roland has released a new version of the TD20. Not sure if that is just a module with the new sound card installed, or all new stuff, but, people waited forever for the card to come out, now the module itself appears to have been revamped. Everything becomes obsolete in a year.
Ray - Download the v2.51 firmware from the Roland International website. It fully updates your TDW-20 to be the same as the latest module (new master compressor algorithms are the main enhancement - makes the sounds more 'punchy').

I would sort out a link for you, but I'm in a rush. Maybe tomorrow if you are struggling.

EDIT: Found it quicker than I thought - here you are:
http://www.roland.com/products/en/_support/dld.cfm?PRODUCT=TDW%2D20&iRcId=14754157&dsp=1


Cheers,
scotty
« Last Edit: December 08, 2009, 07:15:13 AM by spottyscotty »

Orb Vroomer

  • KAT Diety
  • *****
  • Posts: 522
  • It's katalicious.Go ahead & try one.You'll like it
    • http://www.youtube.com/orbvroomer
Re: Do you drum it, strum it or stroke it?
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2009, 01:34:42 PM »
I agree with you Ray - acoustic drums will always be round.....er, around.
But when I was 8 ,& got my first acoustic kit,I didn't know very much about drums & drumming.Technique - obviously not,but what about other issues.What sticks ? How do I grip the sticks ? Traditional ? What's traditional ? What heads ? what size/type/brand of cymbals ? How do I set it up ? What type of drum heads ? Do I need 2 bass drums ? And on & on....

More mystery in electronics,for sure,but it's still just learning something new.

Your concept of another row of pads around the perimeter sounds great."An arc of rim pads",that's a great idea.That's kind of like my DK rig - the poles surround the edges of the DK.You could do the same thing with a TK.(if we can get poles).I've been assembling a second rig & I noticed something- my rig has the same basic shape as a TK. If I had a TK,I would surround the perimeter with poles & plug those into a kiti. Can't afford a TK at the moment......if only there was some way to win one as a prize...............

All this talk about steel cases & weight ...I was 90% complete with rig 2,& decided to eliminate 6 Gibraltar clamps & bolt directly to aluminum tubes.I've made weight a priority.I'll leave the heavy one in studio & take the non-clamp-weight rig out live.Like Ray said "back & knees".

vindrums

  • Extra Special KAT Poster
  • ****
  • Posts: 441
  • Drumming music with Vince
    • Drum Music Electronic
Re: Do you drum it, strum it or stroke it?
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2009, 02:22:05 PM »
    All very good points gentleman from the ORB foundation.....Maybe the forum by putting it out there is TMI, afterall ignorance they say is bliss! :) but seriously, when all is said and done, it's just another thing. Like you said...as a child, what did we know......hehy; give a kid unlimited money to go out and buy a kit. What's traditional? you learn over time. What you like, and what is out there, compared to what heros use what. But then you do learn.....figure out what you want, and put it together, and you have ONE kit.
   Of course; than the 80's showed up, and many bands started using various e's.....many just triggered, but you have your share of those that went all the way...some even using Smmons  :D Now to emulate them, you had to be playing e's.....and a side effect of that was....with e's you could have more variations, so you could easily emulate many different bands with different kit setups.....I was playing 6 nights a week most of the 80's, so for me it was just part of the program. A bass drum could be triggered for a couple hundred bucks giving you a bass like all the other good sounds had, or if you were famous, they could almost make your bass sound that way for thousands.....For anyone making a living playing in the 80's, you had e's in your face.....
    And yes, maybe more mystery in e's.....I remember my first hung note. I remember thinking: okay midi is cool, but it is buggy.......I remember thinking that sometimes the 'midi' would do something random......Of course it's none of these. As for it being 'new', I suppose it's all relative. I'm using e's less now, after having many years of success with only e's. I played on countless recordings, I never would've played on otherwise. Probably had over one hundred different KAT kits over those years. And hopefully planted the seed that a drummer might become a soloist or at the very least a front line player in the future by way of my record: 'A Drummers' Laugh' For me it's kind of old......not to say it's not still modern and new to most....it's like relative man.
    When I brought up the old Propad prototype, no one responded, but I think this was certainly in the right direction....a 24 zone pad the size of a normal (simmons in that day and age) pad.
    A prize you say? Hey; maybe next year!
    Bold move eliminating the clamps....but that's how we got into space.
Vince

Orb Vroomer

  • KAT Diety
  • *****
  • Posts: 522
  • It's katalicious.Go ahead & try one.You'll like it
    • http://www.youtube.com/orbvroomer
Re: Do you drum it, strum it or stroke it?
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2009, 12:13:02 PM »
Hey Vince,what's a 'Propad prototype' ? I missed that post.

Let's look at some more 'alternative controllers'.No drum,strum or stroke - just bowed. I mean VERY alternative.Not human controlled.Not animated like an above example.I don't think musicians are an endangered species......just yet....what does the union think about this ?

After a few more lessons....or programming....& a few more million......I'll go to the concert.

http://www.youtube.com/orbvroomer#p/f/121/EzjkBwZtxp4




vindrums

  • Extra Special KAT Poster
  • ****
  • Posts: 441
  • Drumming music with Vince
    • Drum Music Electronic
Re: Do you drum it, strum it or stroke it?
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2009, 04:39:31 PM »
    The Propad was supposed to be another instrument in the DrumKAT family. In the beginning there were even printed advertisements. It never got made, but I was most surprised to see it still being advertised as late as the 3.5 manual. (page 22) Small, but 24 zones using special interface.
    That robot is very scarey......someone thought enough of the idea to spend a lot of money to do that!
    The union here where I live thought my DrumKAT was evil from the beginning....I kept telling them, that I still play all the notes.....they compared me to the 'box' (sequencer) which was taking over some musicals and in the news at the time...I compared myself to the church organ player that might play different lines with feet and hands....they declared the KAT evil. I'm a drumset player with little other skill, and though I specified that's how I wanted the book to read, they put down: 'percussionist', and didn't put drumset....I haven't talked to them recently, so maybe they've edged down a little...
Vince

Orb Vroomer

  • KAT Diety
  • *****
  • Posts: 522
  • It's katalicious.Go ahead & try one.You'll like it
    • http://www.youtube.com/orbvroomer
Re: Do you drum it, strum it or stroke it?
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2009, 06:03:13 PM »
OK, the propad was an idea only.Like the Mandala ,only never built.The unions threw a fit about (evil) synthesizers,too."This will replace an entire orchestra !! "  Well.....not quite.

Now ,that robot doesn't frighten me.But the guys with the $ here are Toyota - & like it says,domestic & industrial apps for these.It's this robot's cousin who scares me.You know,the one made by Raytheon & Halliburton.What's easier to master - a violin or a weapon ?  aim....pull trigger.......sounds simple,eh ?Just don't let Chaynee calibrate the targeting software. No complicated western notation to master,though.

I wanted the robot in here because I think someone ,(Ray ?) mentioned what's on the horizon.Off subject a little,I admit,but that never stopped me before.My next post will have a human at the controls.