Author Topic: KAT controllers being outdated???  (Read 24036 times)

vindrums

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Re: KAT controllers being outdated???
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2010, 02:03:15 PM »
    Hey DrumMan....don't know what the white intruder thing was about.....I wanted to mention: the guy that said polyphony doesn't matter to drummers is off the base! (tag him out!) If you try to use 32 with modern samples you will find the cymbal cutting......64 is more than enough, unless you're also sequencing through the same module. (like DrumMan) I remember sequencing with the ESQ1 in the old days....was it 8 or 16 polyphony? something ridiculous.....you would program sequences that would end up with notes cutting other notes......sometimes bizarre things came out of that. Some complex sounding tunes were simply polyphony being eaten! Lot's of choked gong parts! The good ole days!
   Sounds like your giant kit is coming along Drumman!
     I'm pretty sure that scientifically speaking 16 bit is fine for samples. This was explained to me before (by someone much smarter then me) and they insisted there was no need for samples to be more than 16 bit. But I would urge people to use thier ears.....I don't care if this new Alesis module is 2 bit, it sounds better than anything else I know of for that price. And about thier use of the same old sounds.......I've always wondered about this idea.....thinking back to EMAX when you could get cards like: Roland 808 drums, and etc. etc. And the newest machines still have those 808 sounds, as well as all the other old stuff. Then you have your best and most modern samples of acoustic drums......sure you can use diferent mics and placement, and different tunings but they're still drums, and that sampled DW kit in certain sizes will sound close to another DW kit form ten years ago....Sure we've gotten a little better at sampling and recording, but here's where we're at.....
   About people using computers for sounds: this whole thing is an interesting commentary. I mean I see the idea......You have an initial outlay of money for the computer........and basically spend 150$ for sounds.........and then later you spend another 150$ for more sounds and repeat until death..your family will also spend 150$ for your gifts on every holiday .......Now if you are a working studio, maybe the 300,000 sounds you've acumulated might have use.....but does a single drummer need 300,000 sounds and how do you find them? So my point is.....even if this was a reliable method for live performance, and even if I hadn't seen people having to reboot during performances........even if I hadn't seen M himself have to reboot during a TV show, I'm asking is this really a worthwhile endeavor? We have modules that can be expanded by adding cards, and new modules that will swap sounds out, so isn't this a pretty even race? (excluding that you might have to reboot during a performance, which is something I will never ever consider acceptable)
Vince

gkdrummer

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Re: KAT controllers being outdated???
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2010, 09:39:32 PM »
I am working towards what I hope to be an acceptable workaround for PC riskiness.  I currently have my turbo programmed to work with a fairly simple, rock solid Boss GM module.  I am working on building a library of sounds for my laptop sampler.  The cost doesn't have to be prohibitively expensive.  I got a DVD full of proteus samples for $10 on ebay.  Once I have it ready, in addition to using my tascam audio/midi interface for midi input and audio output for my laptop, I will also run the Boss audio output into the tascam.  By using the direct-out of the tascam, I have separate volume controls for the Boss and the laptop.  If the laptop flakes, I just have to reach over and turn up the Boss module.  Although the Boss' palette is much more limited than the laptop, 97% of the sounds I will use would work on either sound source.  Now to find time to get that library set up.......

pljones

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Re: KAT controllers being outdated???
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2010, 07:48:30 AM »
I got a DVD full of proteus samples for $10 on ebay.
Probably in breach of copyright.

gkdrummer

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Re: KAT controllers being outdated???
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2010, 10:09:32 AM »
really??  The reason I went ahead and bought it is because I was under the impression that ebay would not allow any postings for anything that is illegal.  Maybe I should report it to EMU?  Either way, my progress so far has been with public domain GM soundsets that I downloaded.  I'm mostly interested in standard GM-type sounds - piano/guitar/etc

But I digress.  I am eagerly awaiting the new toys.  The small form factor of the DK works for me, although I would have no problem with ripping the guts out and replacing them with new innards that would give the unit a new life. 

pljones

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Re: KAT controllers being outdated???
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2010, 01:31:57 PM »
eBay don't vet anything much, as far as I'm aware.  They rely on problems being reported.  Some people don't realise that copying samples from one medium or encoding to another is copying and therefore needs a licence from the holder of the copyright.  Others are plain scammers (and you can even end up with nothing for your money).  It's the same with many free GM soundfonts on the net -- created by people from other samples they've got: but they don't have the right to copy them, so copying them into a soundfont is also breach of copyright.  Calling the result public domain doesn't solve the problem...  It's about the source.

REF

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Re: KAT controllers being outdated???
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2010, 06:04:26 AM »
I would guess drummers would add sounds trying to find all the ones they want, which each individual source does not have. Both DrumMan and I are into cymbals. Cymbals are a short change on modules. I haven't looked into software, but have been told they are far superior to modules in both selection and realism. I can see someone purchasing various software to try and get everything they want a choice in. A keyboard player gets far more for the money than drummers do.

Orb Vroomer

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Re: KAT controllers being outdated???
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2010, 12:00:05 PM »
Quote from REF : "Cymbals are a short change on modules. " I agree {everybody agrees (?) }
Also : " Cymbals are a short change on decay."

Also,we can buy legitimate sound sample libraries.Right now,cymbals do sound superior in soft VS modules.(IMHO)
We talked about this before : memory = $.    If you sample (most) of the decay of a cymbal - it will quickly eat up precious memory.Or you could have 100 other sounds in place of one cymbal sample.I know we are getting better with looping,but if we can hear difference between the looped cymbal & a cymbal with full decay - that's not acceptable.

BTW- If your an acoustic player,SAMPLE YOUR OWN CYMBALS !!  If you already have that capability,& you like the sound - there's your cymbal library.
It's yours & it's free.Just takes up hard drive space.

spottyscotty

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« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2010, 12:00:01 AM »
Quote from REF : "Cymbals are a short change on modules. " I agree {everybody agrees (?) }
Also : " Cymbals are a short change on decay."
There are over 45 base cymbal sounds in an expanded Roland TDW-20. Plenty! On even the highest end workstation, how many pianos are there? Five? Ten? I've always felt sorrow for those poor keyboardists ... ugly suckers most of 'em are, too.

And then you can tweak the base sounds, as to cymbal size, sizzle, comp, EQ, room, mike position etc. Imagine you want a Bosphorus ride cymbal (I choose this example since Ray has used it before), then try #362 [TurkyRd, 20"] from the original (unexpanded) TD-20 palette, and go from there.

As to decay, I think there's plenty there too. I get a ride bell to ring for well over 10sec. How much do you need? We've moved on from the Alesis modules of the mid-90s.

Now, as to out-and-out quality ... well, yes, go VST. But, really, unless you are playing to a room full of studio producers, no-one who listens will ever know the difference.

Top-end drum modules (such as the one both Ray and myself own) are indeed badly limited, but only if you are not prepared to invest the time to tweak with them.

Now, I must go take some pictures of myself for Dave's PICS thread (which I hijacked shamelessly) ....

Cheers,
scotty

pljones

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Re: KAT controllers being outdated???
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2010, 02:18:47 AM »
There are over 45 base cymbal sounds in an expanded Roland TDW-20. Plenty! On even the highest end workstation, how many pianos are there? Five? Ten? I've always felt sorrow for those poor keyboardists ...
How many strike positions on those 5 or 10 pianos?  88 -- if not the full 127!  How many for the 45 base cymbals?  Say bell, bow and rim?  Hmm...  Still as sorry? ;)

spottyscotty

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Re: KAT controllers being outdated???
« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2010, 03:03:21 AM »
There are over 45 base cymbal sounds in an expanded Roland TDW-20. Plenty! On even the highest end workstation, how many pianos are there? Five? Ten? I've always felt sorrow for those poor keyboardists ...
How many strike positions on those 5 or 10 pianos?  88 -- if not the full 127!  How many for the 45 base cymbals?  Say bell, bow and rim?  Hmm...  Still as sorry? ;)
Haha! Touché, Mr Jones  ;D Nice one.

Indeed, the Roland crashes mainly only have two zones (only the rides have three). But are you really comparing apples with apples? I ask you this: when Lang Lang or Chick Corea or Elton John sits down at his piano, he has 88 keys at his disposal, right? Comes with the territory, and they're quite possibly going to need to hit all 88 at least once in a performance.

Now - name me the drummer who needs or who uses 45 different cymbals in his setup ...

Every keyboard player I ever met (yes - all of them ugly) has complained that his rig didn't have enough pianos, or organs, or strings. "I need something that sits between electric and honky-tonk, why oh why does Roland/Yammy/Korg/Clavia do this to me!", they typically exclaim. And, yep, I feel sorry for them. Well up to a point ...  ;)

Cheers,
Scotty


REF

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Re: KAT controllers being outdated???
« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2010, 10:12:16 AM »
I have 50 cymbals in my acoustic set up, and in the course of a concert and solo used them all. Just depends on how one interprets what they do or want to do. Some drummers see a crash as a crash, a punctuation in a piece of music. I hear it as a pitch. I use it in various ways.

45 cymbals. Some of them are cheesy sounding. They don't even sound like real cymbals to me. And consider 45 cymbals for rides, crashes, splashes, chinas and effects. Man, that is sparse for all that is out there. The chinas are not real good on the Roland. Chinas are really hard to sample, but if the Roland is all "electronically" manufactured sounds I should think they could have come up with better aural accuracy. And there aren't many to choose from at all. Just part of the small overall package of sounds. I will say the one 18" medium crash sounds like a real Zildjian or Sabian. The rock crash does come close to a Paiste Signature, but I don't like the gonginess of rock crashes and their thicker construction. So, for me, the collection is made smaller right from the start. I don't know how to classify the other crashes. It's in the ear of the player. For me, my ear is not pleased with what Roland offers. Not for that kind of money.

5 or 10 grand pianos? How many companies are there that make grand pianos? I don't know. On the mods I have there are so many piano sounds I wonder what the differences are. I guess pianists hear what I cannot or do not. That's just pianos. Then there are all the other sounds keyboards have.

While it is possible to tweak on the Roland, you quickly find out that base sounds begin to sound like other sounds when tweaked. Basically variations, not actual, different cymbal sound. Not enough difference to come up with the kind of sonic pallet someone can purchase acoustically. I noticed many of the base sounds, when made larger or smaller in size, end up sounding like other base samples. Then consider what drummers like. I like bright Paistes and UFIPS, and have some Sabians and some Zils in my set up. I do not like soft cymbals like Ks or HHs for rides or crashes and that Turk sound. So all those samples are basically useless to me. For those who like the Turk sound they really have a small set to choose from. But I can't picture jazzers who use turk-type sounds doing the edrum gig anyway. Overall its a frustration, period, for me.

As far as sampling, while I have never done it, I understand it is quite a process to accurately sample a cymbal. Excellent mics are needed, read plural on that for variation of positions upon the strike. The sustain is not a major factor because music covers it all up, or other things in the drum set quickly cover it.

Some of the bell sounds sound like bow strikes to me. They have no real sonic ring to them. I don't know. No use complaining. It is what it is. And it isn't that great to me.

DrumMan

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Re: KAT controllers being outdated???
« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2010, 11:03:50 AM »
Terry Bozzio-has a few cymbals in his setup:)-I only have 15 in my acoustic setup.it is the shimmer of a brilliant crash-that sampled correctly,& with enough polyphony-can give neck hairs a raise as to how good it sounds.
As E-drummers, we are still asking for the best, and only getting morsels & tidbits(scraps)tossed to us.Sampling your own?-If you have that kind of money for multiple mikes, an anachoa sound proof chamber,excellent state of the art recording equipment-then your name is already Yamaha,Roland,etc....not realistic for the average E-drummer.
The problem is as drummers we have higher expectations than,say keyboard players,who became satisfied with sampled sounds at the push of a button.There are very few great sound designers anymore-remember analog synths?ARP,MOOG-Keith Emerson,others(why mention them,I just said Keith Emerson:)-as drummers we want the best,and we want it now.
And I believe some are working to give it to us-just not the palate as expansive as we want.
Patience young jedi's--We,unfortunatly,are still very much in an infantile state of development,regarding sound choices,and quality.
Be happy and safe,secure ,in the knowledge of fact-that we at least,have the best controllers to go along the ride with.

Orb Vroomer

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Re: KAT controllers being outdated???
« Reply #27 on: January 25, 2010, 12:02:54 PM »
WOW !! This thread is morphing.Lots of related topics in here.Lets see...
 #1 question for Ray : 50 cymbals ! wow. I assume that's your entire collection,but not 50 cymbals set up at once.If all set up - please post a picture.

#2 Drumman : Ever try to record an acoustic drum set ? If you did,you were 'sampling' your entire kit.Did it sound good ? I don't have a sound proof chamber,expensive multiple mics (I don't think you want multiple mics for cymbal sampling),etc.I will post some recordings - 2 channel built-in Mac audio,(which isn't top end quality sounding),for all to evaluate.All I use is some Shure 57s & a couple of condenser mics for hh& cym.It's definitely not state of the art gear. (kudos to Keith...why mention any others ! ) You want to hear good sound designers ? Check out 'The Crystal Method' - those guys can tweak !!

#3 In another thread,many said how MP3 quality is acceptable for the masses.If your satisfied with that level of quality.....you know when I burn a recording down to quality formats - I can EASILY tell the difference in quality between those & an MP3.You guys (us in general) seem picky about cymbal quality,then seem to be less concerned about the final delivery format.

#4 Strike positions : This is normally done with velocity,because it's a good work- a- round for us.But hitting a ride HARDER DOES NOT produce a bell sound.That's positional,not velocity driven.It's a compromise to give us more options.We need zoned pads ,as discussed before, to properly address this.

#5( Ray,& others) I don't like this idea " cymbal decay is buried in the mix ".Listen to Led Zep.That's the kind of recording of cymbal decay I strive for.
When left 'naked ' in the mix,even more important.

#6 Pianos : This will foul up the thread for sure.My R (list $2,800) has about 25 different pianos.Way more than any Proteus - not to mention far superior quality.A good piano samples EVERY KEY & at different velocity strikes on each.The more,the better.My main access to hearing pianos (real ones) ,is usually during my day job.Whenever I work in a house.....you can bet if there is a piano sitting there....I'm going to play it (with permission).
So last year I played a 1935 Steinway. Some friends have a Y Disclavier - I had my Mac play a Christmas show on that one.Played pianos in halls & venues - FUN - because your IN THE SPACE.So ,I'm  not a very good player...but my ears get to hear all these.A Bosendorfer has 103 (?) keys,It doesn't sound like any other Piano.Pianos are like cymbals - many unique characteristics.I'll stop now.

#7 Sampled cymbals & tuning : I don't know about R's method of NOT ACTUALLY SAMPLING THE SOUNDS.But if it IS a sample , the further it is detuned from center pitch - it sounds HORRIBLE.Like any sample.Those complex waveforms don't lend themselves to detuning.We've all heard this effect.

I didn't cover all.....this should generate some responses.Many issues I AGREE with in here,guys.We're on the same basic outlook here,just from our different perspectives & experiences.

PS Can't wait until I'm classified as an "ugly keyboard player". But the time I'm an accomplished keyboard player,I expect to be quite ugly.We can't all be "beautiful drummers".  :-*

REF

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Re: KAT controllers being outdated???
« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2010, 08:44:09 PM »
Actually, more than 50, but 50 in the set up. Many are splashes, and also accent cymbals some of which I have made by cutting things down, popping them inside out, etc. I have Sabian flat chinas, 14-24", so there's 6 right there. Plus 6 other chinas. A couple rides, and the rest crashes. And the cymbal tree. 8 cymbals there. Plus the 40" gong. Cymbals range from 6" to 24." When I solo I employ various sets of splashes for recurring "melodies." I guess I have always been into cymbals since the beginning. Probably the influence of Ginger Baker stacking his crashes and all.

It's all packed in cases at present. About the only picture I can post is this, but these pics are from a group which didn't require all the splashes and accents in the set up.

http://www.diydrums.org/builders/folders/rayf/rayf.htm

If I could get this electronically, I'd be happy. At my age, this set isn't leaving the house anymore. Just too much to lug around. I really hope a Finger Drum is in the works for the new gear. Lots of triggers. Although, for some reason 24 seems to be a standard for the most triggers on anything out there. Why is that? If the Pan can have, what, 30? And the Mallet can have all the triggers it has, why not a drum set with that many?

As far as sustain, on the recordings I have crashes are in and out pretty quick. Even rides get lost.

But like you say Orb, memory. Just too much memory. A good cast cymbal will sustain for minutes.


spottyscotty

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Re: KAT controllers being outdated???
« Reply #29 on: January 25, 2010, 09:41:45 PM »
Actually, more than 50, but 50 in the set up. Many are splashes, and also accent cymbals some of which I have made by cutting things down, popping them inside out, etc. I have Sabian flat chinas, 14-24", so there's 6 right there. Plus 6 other chinas. A couple rides, and the rest crashes. And the cymbal tree. 8 cymbals there. Plus the 40" gong. Cymbals range from 6" to 24." When I solo I employ various sets of splashes for recurring "melodies." I guess I have always been into cymbals since the beginning. Probably the influence of Ginger Baker stacking his crashes and all.

It's all packed in cases at present. About the only picture I can post is this, but these pics are from a group which didn't require all the splashes and accents in the set up.

http://www.diydrums.org/builders/folders/rayf/rayf.htm

Impressive! - (the cymbals, the shells, the whole shebang). Even Mr Bozzio would find plenty to hit on that kit. Twelve chinas: must be a world record, surely? Looks like you have (had?) a worthy business going on there.

Anyways, I respectfully shall eat my humble pie. There are drummers who need 50(+) cymbals after all. Although whether Roland would ever cater for such a kit in a module - that's another question!

Cheers,
Scotty